Sniper Wolf
Junior Member
What kind of candles are those? Dee-na-mee-tay. Must be Italian.
Posts: 116
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Post by Sniper Wolf on Feb 26, 2007 22:07:36 GMT -5
Honestly Treefrog, I think that's a wise decision- not playing in the winter, and I'm not saying that to be a smartass or any of that. For the longest time, I didnt play in the winter cuz I wore too much clothing and I never felt 'em, cuz I was new to the sport and I wasnt used to having to really focus and listen for the shots hitting me. As time went on (I've now been playing for almost 6 years) I've gotten better about it. That and I stopped wearing so much clothing and moved alot more often.
Nowadays I'm used to the cold, so I just freeze my giblets off and it doesnt bug me much.
-Ace
P.S.- Yes, I was there. I was the guy with the revolver and twin silenced pistols.
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Post by treeunit on Feb 26, 2007 22:10:08 GMT -5
Yea, I recognized your motto thing. Why'd you change your name?
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Post by Hazard on Feb 26, 2007 22:10:40 GMT -5
And by you going after them, it probably made the whole situation with your little friend tadpole here a whole lot worse. Ok, now your just being a dick, and adding to his point of thinking your all "high and mighty". Everytime someone has an oppinion on these boards, all you people can do is chew them out. And I think thats just sad. Even if you DO drop the ban on me, im not coming back. Because now I see that most of you "veterans" from FSI are just complete assholes, and NOTHING is ever going to change that. quoted for truth
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Sniper Wolf
Junior Member
What kind of candles are those? Dee-na-mee-tay. Must be Italian.
Posts: 116
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Post by Sniper Wolf on Feb 26, 2007 22:19:28 GMT -5
Yea, I recognized your motto thing. Why'd you change your name? Treefrog- Long story. Hazard, let's not add fuel to the fire. I'm trying to diffuse the situation here and settle this the way mature adults would. As tempting as it is to antagonize Oakey (God knows I enjoy it from time to time), let's just resolve this issue and put it to rest without a massive flame war breaking out, okay? I dont wanna see that, I should hope you dont wanna see that- so lets keep antagonization to a minimum- especially after your initial post (didnt really earn you much favor with the locals). If you wish to have treefrog reinstated, you need to speak with Bowen. He mandated the ban, he's the one that would revoke it. -Ace [Edit: Why is my Karma going down? I'm just trying to help... *sniffle*]
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Post by Hazard on Feb 26, 2007 22:28:44 GMT -5
First off, let me just say that it is semi-hypocritical to claim that we're all assholes cuz we're being so hard on this kid and we dont even know him. You're being rather hard on us and you 1) were not there and 2) do not know any of us here on the boards, so arent you passing the same unfair judgements on us that you claim we're passing on him? I dont fancy myself to sound like an asshole or anything, Hazard- but that above post sounded like one long temper tantrum and I'm going to be honest, after about half of it, I just skimmed the remainder for the bare bones. Threatening the moderators that you'll just continually repost your message wont help your cause, nor will it help your friend. I was there at the game in question and I witnessed the behavior in question and I stand behind Crazyman and Skypilot. I was forced to put in excess of 100 rounds into one of the players that was caught cheating (not sure of his forums name) and then moments later I was forced to put roughly 50 more rounds right between treefrog's shoulderblades before the two of them would call out (both of these shots made from about 10-15 feet from a CA G3A3, so even with multiple layers of clothing, that'd be pretty easily felt). As far as Bowen goes, yes it's true he was not there- he was out sick. But Bowen is the event organizer for this particular site, and if players that are known or at least common belief is that they cheat, people arent going to want to come out there and play. Bowen has a responsibility to us, the customers, to provide us with an environment in which we can enjoy our sport and not have to worry about cheaters. We the forum goers are really the only ones that go out there and numerous highly respected members of the forums were there and witnessed the cheating (Myself [aka Sniper Wolf], Crazyman, Jump Refusal, honorguard, Skypilot, Grey Fox- the list goes on...) I will agree, a year did strike me as a bit harsh- but it's Bowen's baby, it's his field, his call- take that up with him. But honestly, throwing a fit is NOT the way to get your point across. We're all rational adults here, you approach us from a rational standpoint, we'll treat you like a rational human being and listen intently to what you have to say. But coming in here and threatening our moderators that you will continually repost your rant is not quite rational, nor does it show willingness to work out the problem. The problem is simply this, from what everyone else there saw, Treefrog among many others were cheating VERY badly, and there are many of us that would attest to it. And while I know you dont agree with the 1 year ban, this is NOT the way to go about pleading your case for us to show Treefrog mercy, end of story. You want to see him come back, plead the case with Bowen- dont call him an asshole and tell him he should be banned for his harshness. That's just my two cents on the matter. -Ace (aka "Sniper Wolf") [Edit: I realized afterward that I repeated myself about 4 times, but oh well- it is what it is...] fair enough. i was angry, still am. but im seeing the error of my ways... let me explain "We're all rational adults here, you approach us from a rational standpoint, we'll treat you like a rational human being and listen intently to what you have to say." well, i wasnt aware that you all would indeed react in that way. reading the large discussion (starting from page 7), people were NOT (IMO) acting like rational adults, and they certainly weren't listening intently on what everyone else had to say. i got the feeling i was either dealing with cocky kids, or impatient adults. i thought the easiest way to break through and actually get some attention with the people of power was to be outraged, and show it. hence my previous rant. let me redeem myself a bit, and do a more mature recap. i think it is very unfair for vets and experienced players to deprive a new airsofter the right to play at a feild. he loves the sport, and will try, given the chance. 12 months is by far too harsh. someone should PM him with all of the things they specifically did wrong, other possible things they may have done wrong, and finally, how to imporve. im sure he will right himself quite quickly. finally, remove the ban. he said it himself. he will not be attending anymore winter ops... that's practically a ban right there (for the next 3 months or so). in that time he can think of what he did wrong, and use said guideline PM to help imrove, then come back in spring and redeem himself to the airsoft community. I personally apologize for my first post. i was heated, and felt almost personally insulted (being that it is a close friend of mine that i have been guiding for months that was being punished for what seemed like insufficient reasons). to the local team and field owner: I over reacted, and said a lot of things that weren't fully true. please, however, reconsider tree's punishment. he's a beginner, and is learning. give him critical advice, dont humiliate him by giving him a 12 month ban for misunderstandings and minor mistakes.
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Post by treeunit on Feb 26, 2007 22:40:36 GMT -5
First off, let me just say that it is semi-hypocritical to claim that we're all assholes cuz we're being so hard on this kid and we dont even know him. You're being rather hard on us and you 1) were not there and 2) do not know any of us here on the boards, so arent you passing the same unfair judgements on us that you claim we're passing on him? I dont fancy myself to sound like an asshole or anything, Hazard- but that above post sounded like one long temper tantrum and I'm going to be honest, after about half of it, I just skimmed the remainder for the bare bones. Threatening the moderators that you'll just continually repost your message wont help your cause, nor will it help your friend. I was there at the game in question and I witnessed the behavior in question and I stand behind Crazyman and Skypilot. I was forced to put in excess of 100 rounds into one of the players that was caught cheating (not sure of his forums name) and then moments later I was forced to put roughly 50 more rounds right between treefrog's shoulderblades before the two of them would call out (both of these shots made from about 10-15 feet from a CA G3A3, so even with multiple layers of clothing, that'd be pretty easily felt). As far as Bowen goes, yes it's true he was not there- he was out sick. But Bowen is the event organizer for this particular site, and if players that are known or at least common belief is that they cheat, people arent going to want to come out there and play. Bowen has a responsibility to us, the customers, to provide us with an environment in which we can enjoy our sport and not have to worry about cheaters. We the forum goers are really the only ones that go out there and numerous highly respected members of the forums were there and witnessed the cheating (Myself [aka Sniper Wolf], Crazyman, Jump Refusal, honorguard, Skypilot, Grey Fox- the list goes on...) I will agree, a year did strike me as a bit harsh- but it's Bowen's baby, it's his field, his call- take that up with him. But honestly, throwing a fit is NOT the way to get your point across. We're all rational adults here, you approach us from a rational standpoint, we'll treat you like a rational human being and listen intently to what you have to say. But coming in here and threatening our moderators that you will continually repost your rant is not quite rational, nor does it show willingness to work out the problem. The problem is simply this, from what everyone else there saw, Treefrog among many others were cheating VERY badly, and there are many of us that would attest to it. And while I know you dont agree with the 1 year ban, this is NOT the way to go about pleading your case for us to show Treefrog mercy, end of story. You want to see him come back, plead the case with Bowen- dont call him an asshole and tell him he should be banned for his harshness. That's just my two cents on the matter. -Ace (aka "Sniper Wolf") [Edit: I realized afterward that I repeated myself about 4 times, but oh well- it is what it is...] fair enough. i was angry, still am. but im seeing the error of my ways... let me explain "We're all rational adults here, you approach us from a rational standpoint, we'll treat you like a rational human being and listen intently to what you have to say." 12 months is by far too harsh. someone should PM him with all of the things they specifically did wrong, other possible things they may have done wrong, and finally, how to imporve. im sure he will right himself quite quickly. Actually, I DID PM bowen about it the day I was banned asking him to specifically list all the things I'm banned for, and he hasn't gotten back to me yet. That could be a bad thing...
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Sniper Wolf
Junior Member
What kind of candles are those? Dee-na-mee-tay. Must be Italian.
Posts: 116
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Post by Sniper Wolf on Feb 26, 2007 22:47:46 GMT -5
fair enough. i was angry, still am. but im seeing the error of my ways... let me explain "We're all rational adults here, you approach us from a rational standpoint, we'll treat you like a rational human being and listen intently to what you have to say." well, i wasnt aware that you all would indeed react in that way. reading the large discussion (starting from page 7), people were NOT (IMO) acting like rational adults, and they certainly weren't listening intently on what everyone else had to say. i got the feeling i was either dealing with cocky kids, or impatient adults. i thought the easiest way to break through and actually get some attention with the people of power was to be outraged, and show it. hence my previous rant. let me redeem myself a bit, and do a more mature recap. i think it is very unfair for vets and experienced players to deprive a new airsofter the right to play at a feild. he loves the sport, and will try, given the chance. 12 months is by far too harsh. someone should PM him with all of the things they specifically did wrong, other possible things they may have done wrong, and finally, how to imporve. im sure he will right himself quite quickly. finally, remove the ban. he said it himself. he will not be attending anymore winter ops... that's practically a ban right there (for the next 3 months or so). in that time he can think of what he did wrong, and use said guideline PM to help imrove, then come back in spring and redeem himself to the airsoft community. I personally apologize for my first post. i was heated, and felt almost personally insulted (being that it is a close friend of mine that i have been guiding for months that was being punished for what seemed like insufficient reasons). to the local team and field owner: I over reacted, and said a lot of things that weren't fully true. please, however, reconsider tree's punishment. he's a beginner, and is learning. give him critical advice, dont humiliate him by giving him a 12 month ban for misunderstandings and minor mistakes. I can completely understand where you're coming from, Hazard- as I myself work wth newbie teams and show them the ropes with the rules and regs of airsoft and teach basic room clearing and such, many of the people I work with are between the ages of 14 and 16. But what you also need to understand is that it's not our place to decide he consequences for the youngins we work with. Whats done is done- accusations have been made, verdicts and punishments administered as seen fit by the powers that be. I think you're taking steps in the right direction by apologizing for your initially heated response. But now can you see why everyone was so irritated with Treefrog? They had just spent an entire day and a crapload of BB's in the freezing cold (I was there, it was bitter cold that afternoon) to have someone cheating (and no, it was not just treefrog, but he was the biggest target for it because it was rather blatant, be it intentional or not- that was the end result). Your initial post where you "Came out swinging" so to speak was the same as their initial response to tree's negligence of the rules, it was angry and quite possibly a little excessive- but I'm good friends with a good portion of the players on these boards and many of them are adults such as Skypilot, Jumprefusal and Crazyman for instance (I'm 18, I dunno if I count as an adult or not). They are all very calm, and very understanding people, but we can only take SO MUCH before we snap. I'm not in any way excusing treefrog- ignorance of the rules is no excuse for ANYONE. But at least now that we're discussing this in a rational manner, perhaps we can turn this around and into a positive so that ALL sides are satisfied with the result. But I think the next step you should take is to PM Bowen and the two of you can negotiate and work something out. As far as this thread is concerned I think what has needed to be said has been said- unless anyone else would like to chime in? -Ace
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Post by tcdoersch on Feb 27, 2007 0:13:37 GMT -5
I now also believe that this thread should be locked. It is turning into a flame fest. Nothing productive is coming of this and I think it should end.
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Post by Knief on Feb 27, 2007 2:47:16 GMT -5
Sorry for my late arrival. I tend not to read game threads if I'm not attending, and this was just brought to my attention tonight.
First and foremost, aside from some basic safety rules that the SEMIA staff requires all events to abide by before we advertise the event (proper eye protection, permission to use the land, some reasonable velocity limits, etc), event rules are entirely left up to the organizer. That includes who can and cannot attend events, be it based on age limits or individual discrimination. Arguing that Bowen and FSI have no right to ban somebody from his event is just plain ignorant. Bowen can ban anybody he wants from his events without giving any kind of reason. If he wished that I not attend, I'd have no right to complain. The fact that he gave you a reason shows that he at least respects your humanity, treeunit.
One key point that hasn't overtly been made yet is what's fair to the rest of the players attending the game. I'm far less concerned about one person's [safe] enjoyment of the game when it inhibits others'. One person really can ruin 30 peoples' days of airsoft. Each one of those people paid just as much as the one to have a good day. Why should we sacrifice the one's enjoyment for the sake of the others? Because that one has already sacrificed everybody else's fun for his own by cheating.
Every event organizer's second duty, behind safety, is to ensure that those who play the game right at an event get a fun day for their money. If that means ensuring that people who are known to fail to call their hits don't attend, then I'm all for it. I've banned people from SEMIA monthlies before because they were known to cheat (in more ways than just not calling hits), and I'll do it again if I ever host an op. The cheater waived his privilege of playing the game when he failed to play it by the rules, and thus shouldn't be allowed to play it again.
Now, as far as this particular event goes, I wasn't there. Here's what should have happened. The players who noticed repeatedly that one player (treeunit) wasn't calling hits should have told the organizers as early in the day as possible. Then, the organizers should have talked to the offender (treeunit) about it immediately, and made him aware of the consequences and some possible solutions. For example, if he was so new that he didn't realize you could hear bbs hitting you, it'd be considerate to point that out. Or if he couldn't feel the bbs because of all his layers of clothing, he should have been asked to remove a layer or two. Once that had been taken care, some event organizer should have been watching him closely. If that organizer or other players still saw him cheating repeatedly, then yes, he should have been asked to leave and banned for as long as the organizer saw fit.
If some approximation of that actually happened, then congrats to the organizers. Keep his ass banned for as long as you like. But if that's not what happened, then you need to reconsider the circumstances. If nobody told the offender that people had problems with him, then he can't be held entirely to blame. In our legal system, you usually don't get a warning. The reason why is because we expect parents, guardians, teachers, and other adults to inform children of laws and socialize them to follow the law until they can reason through their own moral values. Unfortunately, that's not really the case in airsoft.
Nobody is socialized to learn the rules of airsoft from birth, so you have to look at a player's start in airsoft as a kind of a birth. Sure he's probably a teenager, and thus should know how to follow rules once informed of them, and should know how to become informed of the rules. At the same time, you have to expect a new player to make a mistake or two, which is why the event organizers need to talk to him if he's screwing up. That said, the new player has to make an effort to correct his mistakes. He can't reasonably expect to be allowed to break rules, especialy basic ones like calling hits, ad nauseum.
There has to be some kind of middle ground between being too strict and too lax, and I think I've outlined that above.
Hazard,
There's something that you should realize about these forums, and really, any forum run by somebody with the moral reasoning abilities beyond that of the average 15 year old. Nobody is going to ban you for your opinion, especially if you can reasonably support it. What us moderators will ban you for is the manner in which you put your message across. Things like yelling (well, using the caps lock all the time), swearing excessively, name calling, and the like are uncalled for. If you want people to listen to you, you're better off talking like you're at a job interview. Anger isn't the way to get people to listen to you. It's the way to get people to read the first half of your post and not take you seriously for the rest of the discussion. Showing a passion for your side of the argument can be really convincing, and some of the best writing people produce comes when they're writing on a topic about which they're passionate. But blatant rage is a far cry from passion. Always take some time to calm down and compose yourself before you compose a post. It'll be much better received.
Threatening that you'll find a way around being banned is about the last thing you should do. First, it tells me that you think you're doing something that you should be banned for. As a result, I'm going to be looking much more closely for something to ban you for. Second, it's an admission that you have a general disregard for the rules of the forum. That's not a good thing to admit, and I'm sure you understand why. If you want to stick around on this forum, saying that you'll find a way around a ban isn't the way to do it.
A quick FYI: I can set up the forums such that no non-members can post on the forum and so that I have to approve every new member. There's always a way to keep somebody off of a forum. This isn't a threat, and I'd rather not have to ban you, especially since you regained your composure with your last post.
With that, I'm locking this thread. If anybody has something to add, PM me and I'll judge its relevancy. Any other questions about my post, ask me and I'll let you know.
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